Everything Foster Care.

Max, Care, and the Making of an Author

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A name mispronounced, a laugh shared, and then the door opens onto a life where books were the only safe room in the house. We sit down with author and playwright Alan Dapré—63 children’s books and counting—to explore how a childhood in care, a brutal boarding school, and one compassionate nun shaped a creative practice built on dignity, humour, and hope. Alan takes us from libraries that felt like lifelines to Radio 4 plays about leaving care and ageing in care, and he shows how a single line—why be ordinary when you can be extraordinary—can become a working philosophy for kids who’ve been told to shrink.

The heart of the conversation is Max, a rescue dog with a rough first year who became the star of a tender picture book. Max’s history (passed around, frightened, trigger-stacked) mirrors what many children carry, and his transformation under love becomes a simple, blazing point: you are not your past; you are how you’re held now. We talk about reading in the age of tablets, vanishing libraries, and why a toddler lost in a page world is still radical. Alan brings craft insights, too—why writing what you know isn’t a cage but a compass, and how cutting a line can make room for an actor to say everything with one word.

Then comes a poem that stops time. Sixteen marks a cliff edge for too many young people in care—support drops, risk rises, and “corporate parenting” sounds like a bad joke when homework is done on a stool beside leaky pipes. From there we get practical: the perils of profit in placements, the need for local capacity, and a one-line banner anyone can carry—real homes for real kids. We also share our 10K-a-day fundraiser to build a proper platform for fostering stories that recruit new carers, one short, shareable clip at a time.

If you care about children, books, or building a fairer system, this conversation will stay with you. Listen, share it with someone who needs a nudge to act, and leave a review so more people can find these stories.

For those interested in what Palliative care looks like at home there is "The Last Kiss" (Not a Romance)
Available on Amazon now
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Kiss-Romance-Carers-Stories/dp/1919635289/ref=sr_1_1?crid=13D6YWONKR5YH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9._59mNNFoc-rROuWZnAQfsG0l3iseuQuK_gx-VxO_fe6DLJR8M0Az039lJk_HxFcW2o2HMhIH3r3PuD7Dj-D6KTwIHDMl2Q51FGLK8UFYOBwbRmrLMbpYoqOL6I5ruLukF1vq7umXueIASDS2pO91JktkZriJDJzgLfPv1ft5UtkdQxs9isRDmzAYzc5MKKztINcNGBq-GRWKxgvc_OV5iKKvpw0I5d7ZQMWuvGZODlY.fqQgWV-yBiNB5186RxkkWvQYBoEsDbyq-Hai3rU1cwg&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+last+kiss+not+a+romance&qid=1713902566&s=books&sprefix=The+Last+kiss+n%2Cstripbooks%2C107&sr=1-1

SPEAKER_02:

Hello, Alan Dupre. I'm guessing I got that pronunciation correct.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, perfect. Yeah, that's right. Um I I've I've only ever heard it better when I did a play for Radio 4 about 30 years ago. And this chat went, and now a play by Alan Dupree. It's just beautiful. And I just thought, I'm gonna cut that little bit out and just play it on the, you know, on my page.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's that kind of risky pronunciation sort of thing, right? That's right. Uh we used to, me and my wife used to run a theatre company, so you know, we're all over there. Um, okay, so Al famous author. Uh you've got 63 books out. Yeah. Is that correct? Yeah, although just slightly more than my age. All right. Well, there you go. I I'm 63, fellow. Uh I've got uh I've got four books out, so I've got a bit catching up to do. Um but I've got a bit carried away by this whole fostering thing at the moment, so um yeah, and uh let's just start the beginning. What made you want to write kids' books specifically?

SPEAKER_00:

Um well actually it does link, but I've got a care experience past, and it links back to that. Um I was in and out of children's homes for um my childhood basically. And um I remember in the first one there was uh quite a sort of cavernous room, because you know we big, you know. Um there's a TV there, black and white thing about the size of the room, you know what I mean? And um, but next to it was um some bear shelves, apart from a couple of books. Uh there was a Rupert Bear annual that I read. I did actually read actually Little Women. Little Women. I actually was I was a really good vociferous reader. I you know, I sort of pretty much read everything in the primary school. But part of it, so there were other books there as well. There was um there was actually Br'er Rabbit, there was uh books of a certain time, you know. Um but and I also like there was a family is it was a family at one end street, that was another classic one. There's and then there's all the Earth Sea, the Wizard of Earth C ones with Earth's Win when I was older. Um but in those days, being in that environment, it was quite it was loud. You're basically surrounded by kids, but you can feel quite lonely. And um, so I used to just pick the books up as uh, you know, after all, you know, an hour or so of running around and whatever else, you want to just take yourself somewhere. So I would look at these books and I would read them and uh you know uh go to the library quite a lot and uh find books and take books out because the libraries are really well stocked, uh well staffed, and that was really useful. So I I did it because doors are like a a window. Um doors are like books are like a window. Um yeah, doors. Oh, I suppose they're like windows that you can walk. Yeah, a bit, yeah. Um portals, but it's like but I sort of I see them, you know, you open it and then you get in it, and then you're in this world. And it's the world the author has created, but it's also not the world crucially that you're in. And my the world I was in had pretty much every kind of abuse you could mention. I don't tend to go into it much, and and if I'm talking to kids, I'd try and talk about the positives. So, for example, I've only got uh two things from my childhood, and both of them are books. Uh, one is a Superman annual, uh and uh in it, and I when I do school events, I'll sort of show a picture of it, and then there's some writing in it, and uh it says to Ian, love from Alan, um, which I thought was quite nice, and that's the only writing that I've got from all my all those years of schooling, those five words. And then my mate has obviously crossed them out. We're about five or six at the time, and then he's just put to Alan from Ian. So there's not even a love for that. But what I make to the kids is actually out of the five words that I've got of my childhood writing, one of them is love, and that's that's quite a torth, you know. And I said to them, you know, you must keep as much of your own stuff as possible. You know, my kid, my teen's now that she's 16, and we've just got folds and folders of all that sort of stuff, and then she can look at it, keep it, do what she wants with it.

SPEAKER_02:

My wife is yeah, my wife, we've got a 15-year-old and a 19-year-old, and we've got an entire loft full of uh memory boxes and and things that I would think, but why are we keeping this? You know, this scroll of a teddy bear from about the age of three, you know. But that it's very important, I think. Or it will become important one time. Uh and so I think it it it it's interesting. I went to a boarding school uh and I kind of felt uh probably similar, but not not in a such a dark place, I don't think. But it was you're on your own, and you're just surrounded by all these strange when you first get there, strange kids. But that must have happened to you quite a few times. I'm guessing.

SPEAKER_00:

It happened in children's homes, but uh it was decided when I did the 11 Plus down in Kent and passed it. And uh they decided to put me into a grammar school. Now this is a grammar school with I won't name it because I don't need it for publicity, but basically had uh public school pretensions and it still had um it's probably not the term he used, well, at least an accurate term was fagging, which was basically you you you you you've got a prefect and that prefect sends you off an arrow. So uh I had to uh wash rub big kit, I had to go on like three mile runs to go and get a miles bar. Um and then it sort of got worse. As you went through the school, they started to do things like um punishment, you know, like so you'd hold out an encyclopedia, Britannica, in both hands. Right arms until your arm set yeah, or they would get a compass and sort of get it round, you know, the the the the pointer compasses, you know, the geometry compasses and do it round hands really fast. Or they would light a candle and make you squat over it till you know you got burnt. It was all these weird things, and the almost like the teachers were nowhere. I I did try and complain to the teachers at different times and end up with a slipper. Um but what was really weird, they had a forced religion thing there, and uh I had a C by my name, and they weren't sure if it was C for Christian or C for Catholic. So anyway, they I went to sort of uh see this Catholic nun, and we used to do all that. And when I got to about 13, she said, Do you want to do confirmation? And I went, Well, don't really believe in it. I thought, no, no, thanks really. You know, if if there's a God he hasn't really treated me very well, or other kids. Um she she was the only adult there in the whole at time where she went, Oh that's fine. She said, Don't I don't want to make you do something you don't want to do. And that was it. She was absolutely lovely. Um she was called Sister Margaret. Uh we used to call her Shaggy Maggie. Oops. But boarding school was one of those places where it was brutal, and mainly because it's slightly Lord of the Flies. And actually, I just knuckled down and I got board rummers trying to make all the labelling, you know, always surprised you're taking O levels, always surprised you're staying on. And then in the end, I got the three school prizes for um philosophy, uh, English and art. You know.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, that's the people say Yahoo sucks.

SPEAKER_00:

It was very much one of those.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, very much.

SPEAKER_00:

Um, and then went off to university. So um so my expectations for university were um just to have some fun and to find a group of people who I who care about me, and I care about. And actually, in in next in a few weeks' time, I'm gonna go um to Newcastle with some uh friends and they're uni mates, and there's about the six of us, uh seven, including me, um, and we'll just go around and we've known each other for 40 years. And they are like the glue of my life that's held it together. I finally found people who are worth knowing. I don't know if you found the same. Did you meet people after boarding school or um I do know what?

SPEAKER_02:

I I when we were kids, we were moved around a huge amount. So as soon as we made friends, we'd lost them, you know. And I think for me, I never um really glued with people generally. So I was I was a bit of a loner, but you know, I had friends, so you know, it wasn't, you know, out there potential gun man, you know, anything like that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

But um it it became less important to me uh to have people there say, but I think I didn't like you, I don't I didn't have an adult actually talk to me. They talked at me until I was probably 16 or 17. So I never really had the conversation, never understood about relationships and uh and all of that. Um still probably a wife a thing. Uh and uh that was quite amazing life, you know, 35 to 36 then. And um and so yeah, I think we we both went down that same room. I mean we we had the Catholic thing as well, you know. In our boarding school, uh it it was mainly Christians, but if you were a Catholic, when they had the Christian service on a Sunday, they'd kick us out to go down to the local Catholic church, which of course there was only about five of us. So we'd go down to the bullage shop, buy some fags, and just hang around, really.

SPEAKER_00:

So you were so lucky. Yeah, well, that's strange. We never had the I think the other service was an hour and a quarter or something, an hour and 45 minutes, and ours was only 45 minutes. It's the Catholic one. So we'd go into this Nissan hut, this like you know, uh corrugated shed, and uh there would be the priest there, and he was very archetypal, very typical, what you'd expect, stereotypical even. Um and so halfway through the uh the service he'd get the wine out, you know, and by the end of the service the whole half the carafe are gone, you know. It was that kind of thing, you know. So I have an afternoon nap that's I I I just remember just sitting there completely bored. Um and then you go, but but I boarded at this school, you see. And so therefore, and I think you're only allowed out every third week for your exeent or whatever it was. Oh, right, okay. Um, and it it sort of it scars because it was it was a place that hadn't didn't know what love was, you know. And it had it all the all the discipline. So, for example, when I used to have to go back to the kids' hub, um and I won't say the names, but I was called every name under the sun because of this point of difference of being a child in care. And I do remember, probably I was about 11, and I just uh said, Oh no, no, I'm not going back to the children's home. Because what happened was that just before I moved to the boarding school, uh in my children's uh Hill Children's Home, they did a um BPC came along and did a film. And we all had to talk about things. And as kids were interviewed, and I remember talking about putting um Vim on the uh cockroaches in the bath. And uh yeah, because that's what you said cockroaches in the bath. And there was also a boiler room that if you went into it, all the cockroaches were like a carpet.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00:

Something out of the um the mummy. Crazy. Sometimes you'd be shut in that room. Oh yeah. So it was it was it was weird and crazy. And so I I was quite pleased in some ways to be in boarding school, but then as soon as the bullying hit, and then I sort of made out I wasn't going back there, and then some kids followed me, and uh they saw them. I got on a train and it went the other way. So it it basically wasn't going to like perceived home, it was going to the children's home. Um then all the names, all the calling, I got uh loads of fights, people just come up to me. And I'll I'll go through forward a few years, but it got to a point where I got I didn't I never had many things. So uh but I was there was uh a couple um who sort of like could see all this going on, and they've always been around in my life, and they've passed on now. But they used to step in at different times, talk to social services, and when I was 15, they basically decided to have me for the holidays. But before that, they could do very little because they were you know 40 odd years older than me and um and had their own kids. But it was nice to have this sort of guardian angel, there's people who were looking out for me. Um but the the difficulty for me was that I was trying to juggle um the reality of being in a boarding school, and then all this sort of going into you you go out into a really nice environment for a bit, then you're back at a children's home. And it was it was you had to be all these different personalities. And then um I got to 15 and I was in the rug playing rugby, and I always wanted to play football. Now, did you I don't know if your school had rugby and football. Yeah, it had both, yeah. We only we weren't allowed to play football, so we had to play rugby, and um I they took a photo and I was a head taller than all the other kids. So this guy had been bullying me for years, uh, who by the way is now a lay preacher. He um he uh he tried it on, so I punched him down some stairs. I advocate a non-violent response to everything, but after five years he deserved. He landed in some water bottles and he was fine and he left me alone. But yeah, it was amazing how from an actual physical my physical situation, I am taller than them, but in my head I could see myself as smaller. Yeah, and that's what they do to you.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, I mean that's just horrendous. Now I do remember in boarding school, we um you know I had a similar situation. I was not really bullied that much, to be honest. Uh, but you know, on a couple of occasions, some kids, you know, the settling out of pecking order would come along and try it on. And uh I remember this one kid, um, and he was probably quite a nice kid, but he was in the year below me and taller than me. And I thought he'll he'll do this, you know, he'll kind of punch me out the boy that did. Um but it didn't it didn't all go his way at all. And uh I think it was a bit surprised. And after that, I never got bullied uh or approached to be challenged uh after that. And that was kind of nice because I you know, it wasn't in our school there was a bit of bullying, but it wasn't prevalent, you know. Uh but the teachers like yours wouldn't actually step in, even if there was. We had this one game uh once each once a year, called Old English it was called Old English, but it's not like the old English you know. They had four um pitches uh in this school, and all the houses would be at one corner each for four houses. And they would throw a ball in the middle, and it'd be kind of the the teachers would stay on the outside, and what they would do is they'd say, Well, that's two rules, get the ball back to your corner for your house, no killing. And then let it just back and then let everybody beat the crap out of each other, you know, we're supposed to level it out for the year, you know. Uh it was crazy. Look, I'm gonna stop this for a second. If you can hear that, my dog is battering away the back door. Hang on. I've uh I've got two dogs. One's a cock spaniel, uh, one's a husky cross collie. And um the cock spaniel can still get through the cat flap. It's just so it chases the cat in and out of the house. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_00:

He wouldn't be able to coat. Have you seen him? Can you see him there?

SPEAKER_02:

No, I can't. I can see the corner of his He's a Oh, look at that.

SPEAKER_00:

That's that's any change. No, no one no one loves me. He's such a sale son.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. So let's get back to sales. That's all right. There you go. So that's a that's a really tough childhood. There's this expression in there that you age out of the care system. Um and I guess that's where you were, you aged out of it rather than were adopted or were um were fostered. You can't correct. And then so that's a tricky time.

SPEAKER_00:

When you get to 18, were you still having that university or university in a no, I was I was no, I would well, I was at this this school until I was 18. Um just because of the way the you know your birth birthday falls and things. Um and I remember going uh I was 17 and I went up to Nottingham uh Polytechnic for an interview. And um and I had this interview, and and I'd I I was by then I was been doing a lot of drawing and art and stuff. And I was thinking about going to a foundation course, but they they looked at my stuff and they went, ah, and and that turned out that the the guy who was running the course basically went to the like the rival school that I went to. Oh, right, okay. And he didn't really enjoy it. So we but he was obviously quite a lot older than me, but we had a chat. So when I came out, everybody went, Oh, you've got a place, you're getting in. And I went, Oh, and I did. That was actually quite fortuitous. Um, and I and it was really lovely to sort of I went, you know, I went in there and I then met um in fact, I'll be chatting to a friend of mine today who I met that first the second night. Now, the first night I went to uni, I don't know, this is where you're in a where you're a kid's home kid person. I suddenly felt I couldn't get out there and talk to people, so I didn't know what to do. So I stayed the first night in. So the second night, everybody thought I was a complete weirdo, you know, because they'd all been out and done so I was talking about it all and yeah. But I then I went out and did what I did to be me. And it was funny, I had a great time, and they said you're like a cork from a bottle. You know, right. But there were times when we'd be I remember debating with this kid, and uh, you know, literally about the price of fish. Um, you know, because you know, we're talking about the price of fish, and then we started talking about the price of fish, and I was like, um really riffing and I'm being really silly and whatever else and stuff. And I thought, oh, this is good. And he did that, and afterwards he sort of, you know, we got to be good friends. Now, as I say, you know, um, however many years on, uh well, 40 odd years on, we're we're still still mates, and that was that was lovely. Um because but he gave me some advice. He just said um, we're all friends here. He said, Don't have to be so defensive. Because everything was was a I I must have been carrying some kind of shell around me from the bullying and everything else. And I went there, and when so when people said something nice, it was like, oh, um, do you mean that? But I've got a really good radar, a trust radar. I can judge people very, very well. I I very I rarely get it wrong, and if I do get it wrong, it's because they've got so many layers in front of them. Um, you know, I haven't quite managed to unpick it. Um so I've got a I don't know, that means that you know, when people come and talk to me and whatever else or things, I think people can be quite chatty with me, right? At the first off, you know, and it's it's it's you know, and kids and you know, like come say hello and whatever else, you know, dog. And it's quite it's quite nice. Um talking of dogs.

SPEAKER_02:

They laugh at the neighbours' kids. And the neighbours have got five kids. So yeah. Which is uh it's it's delightful actually because it's it's like living next door to chaos. In fact, he's Irish and she's French, and every time I'm talking to them, I feel like I'm on holiday somewhere, you know, it's great. So lovely thick of him. Um yeah, so it's interesting what you say about that because you know, what I've discovered in doing fostering is that you find, you know, kids have the their adapters, and they from a very early age start building strategies to survive or defend themselves uh when things are not right at home or or they're in foster care or or in in any difficult situation. And uh that becomes quite evident that you know when you're gonna meet a foster kid, not how they're gonna have certain defense mechanisms, but what are those defense mechanisms gonna be, you know? So you kind of get an expectation, if you like, that there's gonna be something that you're gonna have to deal with. And uh there's I kind of you know, as a former psychiatric nurse, I kind of and my wife's a PA, so we kind of like problem solving a little bit, you know. So that's you know, we're we're kind of we're good with that. But I can see exactly where you're coming from when you say that first night at university, and that's a completely different environment, different ball game. And it's lovely that your your friends said, we're all friends here, you don't have to be so defensive, because definitely that's what I think some foster kids immediately have that shell. And it is a self-protecting shell, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00:

So yeah, you hide yourself away a little bit, but I mean I'm I'm really quite gregarious, I think. Um but I don't seem to be. Don't find I don't I don't suffer false gladly, that's thing, but not rude, but I it's like and unfortunately, I sort of probably give them a lot of time to the point where you just think, oh my goodness, you know, because we're in a world now where by people are very free to say quite horrible things. And and and you know, um I live in Scotland now, and uh everybody's brilliant, actually. If uh the thing is if you act like a dick up here, you'll be treated like one. But if you don't, you know, you you you you're you're fine. Um I mean you're always gonna be um yeah, an incomer. You know, uh I've been in this place now for 18 years, you know. Um and uh you know that's an act. No, yeah, exactly. They'll carry me out, you know, as an incomer. But but you know, it's we've got a beautiful, uh you know, uh beautiful view, beautiful everything, beautiful house, life, dog, everything. And I'm very lucky, but I do sometimes think back, I was wondering how things were gonna be when I was taking that step at 1819, and not sure what what but I knew I was creative. Um and actually, um I've been I'd I'd written kids' stories which will never see the light of day. I actually said I threw them away, which was the upset it. When I was about 30, I was I moved and I just thought, oh, these are rubbish. Threw them away because I was embarrassed. But now, and that was before I was published, um, and now I think, oh, I wish I'd kept them. You know, because it was a child my it was a child mind, you know, and I was probably 10, 11, 12 at the time. And say nothing.

SPEAKER_02:

Where you'd where you'd emulate comics, you'd actually draw lots of squares and then draw little characters and make comics. Did you do that kind of thing as well? That was something that was quite big in our school. I don't know why, but we used to make comics, and then we put it in in a school newsletter, you know, which was heavily redacted by the teachers, clearly, you know.

SPEAKER_00:

Um sort of part that a guest tetna, one of those big ink things. That stank of uh of of fluid, you know, and um uh that really it was a stuff that made you high uh in a room, you know. And so this thing, this printer thing would print out, and the the actual uh magazine was called the guestetna. And you know, after a week it's all faded into this sort of purpley blue blob, you know, read on the paper. And actually, when I first I became a teacher, and uh we used to have to use those machines, we used band machines which operate on the same principle. And uh so you stick the fluid in and then you whatever. And all that you wonder why all the kids are running around like loonies, you know, I'm looking for get away from the machine. But the funny thing was you'd hand out the paper, and the first thing they would do, they wouldn't read it, they'd sniff it. Sniff it. Yeah, don't you get I remember that.

SPEAKER_02:

I wonder why paper always had a really nice smell to it. I know now I know. Yeah, that's funny, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like that you give when you went into the art cupboard and they to tell the delivery. I remember you there's a very specific smell that you were g you kind of go, right?

SPEAKER_00:

There used to be a glue that smelled of marzipan. I don't know, it was like a PVA type glue. Yeah, much and whenever whenever you took the took the uh the lid off, this marzipan smell came out, you know. So actually, yeah, schools are quite quite full of strange smells to us then.

SPEAKER_02:

Training we're a drug addict, but that's not the thing. So, okay, well let's talk, let's kind of move out of the children's home theme and the university. And so you went to university. Was that uh to study to be a teacher? Have you got that in mind at that time, or was it something that you just I'll get these qualifications and then decide what I'm gonna do? That's a bit both.

SPEAKER_00:

I I actually was doing a creative arts degree. Now, all my mates will say you just run around with a bit of wood for three years. You know what I mean? But I did about twenty twenty to thirty plays. I wrote some, I was in them. Um there was I uh there was one where I was asked to act in it, and um and I am the world's worst. A AI courts a lot, so I just laugh. I'm even laughing, just thinking about it now. And the other thing is I was asked to put on this sort of Ian Paisley very strong accent. Um and then be and and be this and it was about the troubles, and um so very, very serious subject, and it'd been written very serious, and I had to play the dad at 19. And I just couldn't do it. I knew it was I was gonna be awful in it. And I did, um I worked my got my way through it and somehow I blagged it, but I was absolutely dreadful. I then wrote a play that I was in, um, and I was all I had was one line. I had to sort of uh say where there's a will, there's a way, and somebody got this will, and they were trying to go somewhere. So a little pun on this, you know, and it was I just corpsed at it and I laughed, and I just thought, I'm so rubbish. Um so I knew at that point I could never ever be uh any kind of serious actor. So I'd I'm gonna be a good one.

SPEAKER_01:

But the playwright stuff, the playwright stuff though, the playwright stuff though seems to have uh caught your attention.

SPEAKER_00:

It did. It did actually, because these were comedies, and then um I wrote there was a a a playwright competition that the Nottingham Playhouse did. It was called I think it was called Writing 87, shows you how long ago it was. And and I wrote a play um and it was called, let me think, it was called Comeback. And it was about the it's just these it was basically just uh kids Disaffected kids just talking about what they're gonna be doing and maybe there's a bit of you know um stealing stuff and whatever else. And it was really about them trying to find the direction in life. And it it won. I I put it in and it won. So at that point I was heading for a 2-2, right? And I was a bit grumpy about this because I was be doing the art and I was doing the drama and I'd had this I'd done this arts um exhibition and the the the guy who came along to sort of mark it, he m he walked in, and he was he was a very, very, very tiny man. Um sorry, I sort of like looked down and there he was, and he looked at me and one of his eyes was was like going sideways and he went, Ah, Andre, and stuck his hand out. Now I'm called Alan Depre, I'm not called Andre. I'm also much taller. And I was like looking around and go, What? What? I just saw this guy and went, Andre, Andre. So I shut. He said, I have I have whore your work. It is an insult to the impressionists. And then he took out. And I thought that's that's pretty good, right? That's art in itself. What was that all about? They're like, thanks, mate. So I got a D. So I went to the um to the guys on the course, and they just went, man, and then I created this um comic based on Roy Liechtenstein's pop art. And I took all of his all of his pictures and I photocopied them, I stuck them into a comic and created this narrative where basically I think in one of his pictures there's a woman holding a big beach ball. And I made out that that was a Liechtenstein dot that actually got lost or something. And so I saw this big pot trying to find it. You found it at the end. Well, that got me my that got me my A. So now I'm like in the middle. And then I did this writing thing, got accept, you know, um, you know, won this competition. And I remember just going into the um uh going to the the guy who was running the course of stuff, and and they'd been telling me, you know, what I was going to get. And I just went, I just had a play on a not in a play, it's on the Derby Playhouse, it's rehearsed reading. And it actually had um some of the car Des Barnes, Philip Middlemas, uh actors from Coronation Street who are in it. Yeah, Billy Ivory, who wrote um that the the the the the series about bin men and stuff, you know. Um so that was when they were starting out as well. So we just had this play read there and it was a little taste of something and I thought, oh I like this. Um and then went on subsequently to write my uh a play um about two kids leaving care. And one's 18 and doesn't want to leave and the 16 year old is desperate to leave. And they're at a train station. And I wrote it and and it got it I put it in for the Young Playwrights Festival BBC Radio 4. And um it was one of the winners. So I was invited to the BBC a radio whatever and then had this this play um acted through um and then it went on to the radio um one you know the like the armchair slot or whatever it was you know and um and loads of people heard it. And actually all the staff basically we just it was a lunch break so we just stopped nobody wanted to listen to it. But because it was a personal story not quite autobiographical but sort of I I I left the room and just let them listen to it. But you know it was great. And the Times did a but it made it their time's choice and they just said it it like reminiscent of the musical dialogue and the crack the jokes and the witticisms and stuff at that time. And uh I um and then subsequently went on to do another play which was um uh two years later about an old guy in a home all about homes aren't they um well yeah it's interesting that isn't it you know we just we just they say write about what you know about don't they? So well this one this one was called Stranger in the Home and it was about an old guy being left in a home while his family cleared off to you know overseas in New Zealand and so on. And then it's one of the promises about him going there and actually you know pretty early on he's never going to get there. But there's a lady in the in the home who who's really like adores it and he doesn't want anything to be with her. So it becomes a bit of a love story over this half an hour. And this and this realization that actually that sometimes relatives can be really really crap for yeah yeah and um and that was acted by Bernard Hepton and I don't know he he he was in Secret Army he was very over you know big name and I remember it the script was slightly over long and he looked at it and the producer wanted to cut some lines and I said but what will you do? I said if I if I cut those what how what will you do? And he went I'll act darling and he did and he I think he must have just he must have just said some word one word or something you know which carried you know there's like ten lines of screen and he and he goes like really or something and you go Yeah and that you get the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02:

It's funny I I once uh I mean I did the right a few plays myself I was just doing the theatre company and one of them was the I said King Lear and I rewrote it and uh I set it at a theatre called the Orb. Not a globe I didn't want to didn't want to offend anybody and uh King Lear gives away his different the education department and the main house and the uh marketing and all this kind of thing and I and then I gave it a happy ending because it tells us to F off is not going to retire in the end. And it worked out really well with everybody and it was a it was an amazing sort of play. It's really good fun to do. I mean it was a fun play uh except with the Scotsman who hated it and but I think the reason they hated it was because we we all got a bit drunk the play was in the afternoon and we all got a bit drunk in the evening and they invited us to this uh critics review sort of thing but we didn't know that what it was and there was these tall guys up on stage and they were talking about these plays and we thought they were the plays that they'd written themselves. And so we kind of got up and walked out and a bit of disgusted this self-obsessiveness. And it turned out that they were uh no they were working for the Scotsman reviewing all the different shows. Shh so they came to ours and they just rubbished it so it was and that's fair play you know you read it so um but uh yeah but it's interesting you you know this thing that you write about when you know I did a play called Oh the Tavercare of his mother and her TV and it was about me looking after my mother for eight years because that's when I started to do uh theatre when I was in my kind of I don't know thirties. So and yeah and and that was kind of the best I think probably even now my wife thinks that's the best thing I've ever but it was based on the thief his lover and my that's it yeah yeah yeah uh and uh that even now we look at the script and then she can recite lines of it. Yeah and and it's things that you know like that that come back to you time and time but there's lots of stuff in your writing uh that's it's kind of quoted by people you know little witticisms or um bits of wisdom.

SPEAKER_00:

Years ago um and I feel a bit bad about this basically I I when I first taught I had a very inspirational teacher called Mr. Madison he he was my mentor um and uh he was in a place called Gotham um which was apparently where Gotham you know Gotham City that that there was some kind of correlation between that I haven't never got to the bottom of that but it was a tiny little village outside Nottingham you know and um and there was a school which was beautiful and absolutely brilliant you know I've got different stories to tell about that but he was fantastic and he had a saying why be ordinary when you can be extraordinary yeah very so I basically started to use that out and actually now if you go online he just says Alan Debray why be ordinary when you can be extraordinary and actually I thought a bit bad because I licked that off him um no I like that that's fine and and you know he'd probably be really um flattered that you did do that that you have done that.

SPEAKER_02:

But it's been very useful because it's it's it's accurate. Let's move on. So we've got uh tell me about Max the Dog. Okay well so we're I'm gonna have to wrap this up in a minute but tell me about Max the Dog because uh I I I think I've read that he'd had a couple of homes before he came to you um yeah that's right I think we here we go we're talking about like um things that run through things you like exactly where I was going with this one.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah well I I mean Max is all about a dog a rescue dog that um a little girl who wants to give a a dog a home and she goes to this place called the doggy uh uh you know uh doggy den and she looks at lots of dogs but there's one dog she really likes and it's Max um and I based his story on Max uh he we got him when he was about a year he'd been passed around he's had quite a mixed um background in that first year uh Max is his fifth man and he'd had seven places where he'd been staying and whatever he'd also been hit because he came with marks on his nose and when you lifted your hand up he weed you know that kind of thing and also because it was lockdown um if people had a mask on and they were wearing a black top and blue jeans that holding metal any metal any shiny metal he would bow you know bow wow wow and get stressed triggered um that that's all gone now but I put a little bit of um how you need to get a dog how you when you you know this girl's desperate it's quite a funny little picture book that I've written beautifully illustrated by Alex Ayliff uh it's published by Little Door Books and it's it's just really nicely done it's a follow-up to our previous one called Grizzly Ben which is about a boy who gets so grumpy and grisly he turns into a bear. Yeah I love that I saw that on your uh on your page and and that just that's perfect isn't it yeah it's all these sort of like things about life frustrations that all kids have so this one about Max is just about you know taking finding somebody or finding something or finding a dog and giving it a home and giving it love and and because it says we we we took we don't know what Max was but we know what Max is yours. Right that's lovely yeah and then she holds it you know and then she always says you know you know she always reads them at night you know and uh and then it ends with I love dogs do you you know and gets kids to think about it. Um and it's yeah I thought because I've been trying to get books published about um kids in care in a picture book literally about two kids in care you know and it's so difficult because as soon as you start talking about it people will say say stuff oh it's you know uh like adoption or fostering is is is child abuse or child trafficking and things like that. Now all I'll say is people they're entitled to their view. But I I basically was in kids' homes for most of my childhood.

SPEAKER_02:

I was meant to have been adopted by the um Catholic society um uh it was going to happen a couple of times and for various reasons it didn't um and I I it was a term I read recently and it's quite horrible I aged out yeah that's that's what yeah I I I've heard that before I kind of like to think you grew out of it you know aged out isn't that horrible aged out yeah you aren't good enough anymore because you're not young enough to be in our home becoming weirder completely so so so whatever stages and stages you are you're not good enough you're out you know and you end up r rotting in there you know and uh and then you're a target for abuse and all the horrible things so I think the writing comes about wanting to make me feel better and wanting to give me a safer space and and that's what it does.

SPEAKER_00:

I get such joy when these books are published you know I'm told look for one now you know I mean I've got I've got one here and that I don't know I'm sure people will be able to get go go and see your website and just for the moment well that'd be nice um but you know um and my dog Max is is you know he's here oh nice no you can't probably can't see him but he's just lying there desperate for attention and um bless him and I absolutely absolutely adore having him um and I love the fact that I've been able to share it. So I was at Boswell Book Festival and then uh Tide Lines Festival and and recently at Wigton um and what was nice was at the end of the events you'd go and do you want to meet Max the real Max he's here and all the kids would go ah and that would be how we have that no more book signing. They've all cleared off you know and he's brilliant with them he just loves kids. Great. So that is it that's what I I I sort of feel that I'm still able to go on this journey but I'm in control of it now.

SPEAKER_02:

So I still gives you a certain sense of importance I should imagine that you didn't have when you were in kids' homes like you're a nobody in there now actually you're a very big somebody but and this is the bit I bet you know to correct me if I'm wrong but when you do that and when you say that and do you want to read read the real one it's like opening a little packet of gold for the other kids and then have that you know and they and you see their eyes light up and it's like the biggest best feeling is that about right?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah it's that is it's it's like a gift isn't it I mean you know you can you know yeah we all know what it's like you know I spend far too long on my phone looking at the real world and looking at all the horrors that are happening. And it can either make you uh more inward or it can make you harder you know or make you not bothered and I don't want to be disaffected. I still want to um you know care about other people and care about the world. But I thought well what can I do? And what I can do as long as publishers want to publish me and I can you know and that's tricky nowadays because we've lost loads of libraries schools are underfunded so schools haven't got the money to to get authors in or to buy as many books. And you know we're in a we're in a a climate where now like the tablet rules and therefore kids sitting with a book you know fewer kids do it. So we're at this and Amazon is there you know with all the gadgets and stuff. So we've we've hit this crux and all I can do is like wave my books about if I can get them published and just say have a read about see what you feel and I get sent video of little kids you know two three four year olds just immersed locked into the world that I've created there and it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah that is a wonderful I'll tell you what that's a brilliant time to end the interview I think uh on that note because uh it was just magical so listen uh thank you for being so honest with me uh and I'm going through that which is you know a really difficult time and you're right there's six thousand um foster families short in the country that's 10,000 kids in care that really shouldn't be uh and you know I you know something I want to do something about because I know the government keeps pouring money in uh and then the number of carers seems to go down where the money's going. But so just as an aside one of the things I'm doing is uh trying to get a website a professional website together. And this isn't on me asking you for money by the way so I thought I'll just get that clear. I'm doing a GoFundMe uh to get that going. So that promotes the podcast uh and gets a bigger wider audience because it's about inspiring people to become foster gearers and letting them know that this it's an actual thing because when they call mental health the twilight of the NHS fostering is complete darkness. Nobody even looks at it. So that's why I'm trying to spread the word about that a little bit. And to do that I'm running uh 10k every day for 28 days. But very slowly because I'm 63 it's not so I'm on day 19 at the moment. So it's a yeah we've we've raised uh 1670 so far I think so we've only got another grand to go and then uh we'll have this managed website which will start to do reaching out to people to new audiences. Do you know they do that one thing a lot of foster um well I I don't know councils come to our event we'll talk to you about fostering. Nobody's gonna go to that event yeah because it's like if you're not already in the game where you don't know about fostering what would honestly you know entice you to go and talk about something you had no idea about so my real plan is to try and get people to start sharing these little snigglings, these little videos uh on their own social media.

SPEAKER_00:

Well I'm happy to link my website to yours you know as there's a few you know we'll do we'll talk about it.

SPEAKER_02:

Brilliant as soon as as soon as I've got the website that is so that'd be great. So listen how it's been amazing talking to you and lovely listening to you talk about how you survived Pierre Holmes in fact hang on a sec. I got here's the other one look say hello there he goes in mate he's too sulky he's not moving dog did not all right I'll forget you um yeah so thank you very much for the interview it's been real special hopefully when because we'd like to go to Scotland quite a lot and like wave at you from wherever you are in Scotland. And um if I could ask you maybe to revisit in a year or so and see what you're up to there and maybe talk about some other stuff.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah there's plenty more to talk about that'd be absolutely lovely. What I was just wondering whether um well once we've done this um I've got a poem that I wouldn't mind reading on camera here which maybe if you wanted to stick up on your website at some point because it's very relevant to things it's about that cliff edge drop-off that is still happening where children hit 16 and um and then the you know they're out in the real world you know and the support basically drops off as well and I wrote a poem about that which I feel sort of expresses how I feel about it but also the situation. Have you got it to hand now?

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah it's here crack on it you know yeah I can I what I I might be able to do is put a little gap in between and we'll um well yeah I really would love to hear that.

SPEAKER_00:

Alright okay I'll I'll do that then I'll just um I'll stick it so I can read it there. Okay so I I feel that there's like um a cliff edge it wasn't addressed when the um the English uh care review happened. Um it was basically a lot of promises were made um some of it was implemented a lot of it went by the wayside because we had a change of government and one of the things is that yes kids sort of will have an accommodation a place before while they're sixteen up to sixteen and then after that you get this perfect drop. So I wrote this poem. It's called sixteen sixteen last scene heading for accommodation stripped of former regulation a bed a table store some space a pretty dismal lonely place no pots that clatter no more chatter about the things that do not matter life is now a constant battle fixing leaky pipes that rattle buy the shopping deal with cash sort appointments dump the track avoid the gangs that prowl the stairs and passing strangers stony glares shouting neighbors please pack it in try not to think of trafficking the threat of modern slavery living here takes bravery sixteen used to residential care support staff who were always there a home from home I won't forget was also where us children met. We had a laugh some tough times too but always managed to pull through that was back then and this is now I have to cope I'm not sure how. I'm not an adult just a child set to forage in the wild care is ended just support as if the whole thing is my fault. Hostels, bedsits, tents and flats, children in them simply this act is pure discrimination speak how I fear recrimination reality not just bad fiction adults here with sad addiction grown men who have been in jail are being set up here to fail. Independence at a cost freedom gained but friendship lost no real context or connotation threat of sexual exploitation a high court judge said it's okay for kids like me to live this way. I have no bank of mum or dad no trust fund or a penthouse pad just this bed, that table and a stool where I do my homework out of school it's not ideal. In fact it's grim this situation that I'm in no level playing field for me no fair play or equality they call this corporate parenting as if that really is a thing. Would loving parents ever dream of kicking kids out at 16 that is really really good and and it's so powerful. Wow and it's exactly what happens it's from the heart mate oh my god I'll send you a copy of this please I would love a copy of that mind you I've got it I've recorded so I'm gonna play that to my missus later so that's that's brilliant and actually our uh our fostering you know agency uh our Tom be straight on their on their uh yeah I'll I'll I'll I I've only got it as an image but I'll I'll uh type it out and then I'll just send you on via email you know lovely thank you so much it's been an absolute pleasure yeah brilliant Jason David but I'll tell you what we'll have to um we'll have to uh just keep in touch and just sort of like as you're doing bits and bobs let us know and then we'll you know switch things back. And if I can publish something.

SPEAKER_02:

That would be great. I mean I'm always waving some flag or other for fostering or uh well the other thing I was doing was end of life care. We used to go in when COVID hit and business uh that went south for a bit because it was delivering cooking oil and nobody wanted cooking oil during COVID because it all closed down. So I had to go back to my former thing of being a nurse. Well I didn't want to retrain so I went into end of life care. So in the last four weeks I went with this team and we go in uh and look after people when I'm on their way up and funnily enough the best job I've ever had you know 22 or my strength uh and I started a podcast there uh called Everything End of Life and that's just had 1,800 hits so far.

SPEAKER_00:

Well now if we can get that same number I'm hoping for a lot more to follow this podcast then uh even if 3% of them were to start flustering that's around about 50 people 50 panelists I would think I would I think yeah but I would think that there's a it's clarity in message um and I would like you know like with your with the website with the running with everything else you almost like need a slogan just some or some kind of very one line quick summary when I do my books and stuff I have to pitch it in a single sentence and then I'll then do a paragraph and then I'll do a blah blah blah with a whole lot you know um and if I can't say it in one line yeah so so what are you running what are you running uh homes for kids essentially you know real homes for real kids I like that I'm I I'm a genius I didn't even know it's no you but you didn't know it's it's in your mate that's the thing yeah yeah uh real homes for real kids uh my marketing people are gonna love that and then what and then okay and then the qu then the second point is um why are you running it?

SPEAKER_02:

What's it doing for you? Because no one else is you know that's it that's a very good question. And I I why am I doing the whole thing? Uh so that might go back to my childhood and uh having to raise a flag against injustice generally as I see it. I'm one of those people I I do things because I don't know that I can't so an idea will pop into my head I've got a touch of ADHD and I'll go oh I'll try that then and I'll I'll just go and do it. I mean this is where I I went and bought a horse I've never done horse riding in my life but I just you know I was a bit bored looking after the monster then I'd see horses go past I went and worked on a farm for six months and bought a horse and uh and and and loved that for 20 years. That's great. So yeah I think it's because if I see an injustice I want to do something about it because before we had foster kids we had uh Homeschool Ukraine we had a lady here and her little boy and they did really well and they went off and then the more I discover things and there's you know they they've got a house and a car and you know great light now and then we go into the fostering and the more I learn about fostering and how it is in just in darkness. You know local authorities are a bit of a mess really um but not not because they're horrible people but because they've got their money and they've got to take all of the kids that are thrown at them.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Independent fostering agencies have got finite amount of kids so they can do it a lot better. And so I'd want to kind of help you know that's about it really. And I'm not I'm not doing anything else right now.

SPEAKER_00:

No why but you're doing you're doing you're making a difference in that way though. I mean I would you know yeah I'll come on again and we'll chat you know about you know how kids get ripped off and the profit the the you know the the profiteering that goes on these other things which you can't really touch on. And that actually when you do criticize it people then will go that's not true. And then you go well well why don't you start looking at who owns that company that and then the company that owns that company and oh they're based in Saudi Arabia they're based in Spain they're based in wherever you know and you go it's it's not sustainable. You know if you want to build an in-house UK based you know rely you know keep banging on about you know UK UK whatever well okay then go on then sort it out but you know all the money being stripped out and all the services being emptied and you know turned inside out these kids the kids are left I okay I I read a horrible was that statistic wasn't it um there's something like a thousand and sixteen deaths or something um of homeless of homeless people and 16 of them were children.

SPEAKER_03:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

That's a recent statistic that came out when you're going okay we are 2025 and kids are dying on our streets. Oh is that about so they are that's what you were up against you know if you can make take any any kid and give them a happy home life for for however long it's better than what they've got you know yeah oh I know I'm we're singing from the song sheet I think without that but yeah let's talk about this a lot more you know in the near future. Can I just say a bit what you might have put this in but you know thanks very much for for having me on and for giving me an opportunity to sort of explain about about why I create and what I do. And it's also great to hear how your early life has affected you and uh how even now you know our advanced ages that we still look forward to doing things changing things and making a difference.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah yeah yeah I I do my wife does my two girls do me I think that's just rubbed off on them really so they're really altruistic they're lovely kids. Alright Al I'm gonna have to leave it there. That's brilliant. It's been great thank you very much

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